It is up to Security Council to refer Syria to ICC, prosecutor Ocampo tells Al Arabiya

Talal AlHaj, Al Arabiya New York

Luis Moreno Ocampo, prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC), told Al Arabiya that it is the duty of
the ICC-member states to respect the Security Council decisions. He said that it is up to the Security Council to decide whether to refer the crimes committed in Syria to the ICC or not. This is the second part of Al Arabiya’s interview with Ocampo, which has been edited.

Talal AlHaj, Al Arabiya New York/ United Nations Bureau Chief:

The noncompliance of African states with the need to arrest fugitives who have arrest warrants, such as Omar Bashir, how can you as a prosecutor ensure these countries will do right thing and arrest fugitives and deliver them to the court as per Rome statute?

Luis Moreno Ocampo, chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court:

I cannot. It is not my job; my job is to conduct investigations fairly, impartially, and present it to the judges, so the duty of states is to respect the Security Council decisions, because here the most important thing is the Security Council decision and then those states who are members of the Rome treaty also respect their own decision. They decided to join the ICC, so that is what they have to do. I cannot impose my will on sovereign states, they have to do it.

Look, this ICC is a totally new idea. And it is complicated, and the Bashir case is probably the most complicated for the diplomats because we are asking to arrest a head of state, and that is why it is a controversy, but maybe it is time to review the African union, the idea it has not to cooperate with the court. Because I don’t know if you know, but the African union decision not to cooperate with the court was adopted by Muammar Qaddafi himself. It was in 2009 in the debate in Sirte; in the last half hour of debate no more heads of state were there, just a few ministers of foreign affairs, and Qaddafi said, “personally I should like to see this clause that we should not cooperate with the ICC,’ and he said, ‘Okay, Uganda will know what to say, be silent. Child: shut your mouth, adopted.’ That is the way in which this African union resolution was adopted, so probably it is time to review it, no?

Talal:

Shouldn’t there have been some mechanism within the Rome statute, some sort of punishment, let’s say, to countries that do not fulfill their commitments?

Ocampo:

The world is based on national sovereign states like peers, so it is difficult for them to punish each other, they need agreement.

So that is why the Bashir case is a case of maximum tension between two main ideas: no crimes against humanity, no genocide, but also respect for national sovereignty. These two ideas are in conflict in the Bashir case.

That’s why it is so complicated, but that is why the ICC work is so important. Because we are changing the way in which the world was operating over the last 5,000 years, so we are changing a 5000-year tradition.

Remember when the Security Council referred Darfur? It was a long debate, three months, ICC yes or not. Eleven votes. This year in Libya no debate; as soon as they decided the crimes in Libya should be investigated with no doubt they referred the case to the ICC by consensus, unanimous decision, 15 votes.

That for me is showing how much the ICC is progressing, because as soon as the world needed justice the ICC was there. And also the fact that Tunisia joined the ICC, it is also sayng yes, we are not just working for governments and states, we are working for people, ad people particularly in the Arab Spring countries understand it very well and they like the ICC, so I think this idea is needed, that is why it is working, because peace is not a luxury, peace is needed, we need peace, so that is why the ICC is needed.

Talal:

I would like to ask you about what is happening in Yemen and in Syria.

Ocampo: